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 Add Hard/Soft Caps for Secondary Stats 
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 2:04 am
Posts: 229
Maybe we should look at adding in caps for speed and other things? Xenimus has this for some stats like Heal On Hit and resistances, but maybe this should be expanded to the other secondary stats as well.

Seems a lot jank and balance issues stem from the fact that players can cast and attack faster than the game/server can process, so why not just add a cap to maximum attack speed and increase damage per hit? I've heard some of the more tech savvy players say that Xenimus only sends transfers data at like 6FPS or something, so why not cap attacks and casts with that number figure?

If you were to have like a 30% hard cap on Crit, Lethal, Attack Speed, and such you wouldn't have situations where players are doing unpredictable amounts of damage. Some weapons like bows can get nutty with +3 speed where the game cannot register a hit on a moving target due to projectiles not connecting, and melee classes scale bizarrely into the late game once they reach a threshold where they are proccing multiple effects per swing and attack like 20 times per second.

Some games do a PPM (Procs Per Minute) or PPS (Procs Per Second) kind of limit so that you don't end up with double/triple proccing nonsense that can get out of hand. Some do a HARD CAP where your stat has a peak growth at a certain percent and you can't gain more, or a SOFT CAP where it has diminishing returns as you continue to stack the stat until it's no long worth to stack after a certain amount.

Has this been something discussed in the past? I know EJ has tried to adjust the speed of the game this year but it's still not quite in the right place, and other things have changed in that amount of time too.

Thoughts?


Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:09 pm
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DEF n eded for stacking 71-91 agility + high attack speed + level 73 omni velocitas speed buff + rage potions all stacked. The animation shows 1 hit but youre hit 2-4x.

Hard caps kinda suck though, as you see the amp/amd cap made every mage more or less the same.

But melees never got any kind of a cap as they are free to stacking DOZENS of multipliers at once.

Soft caps I am fine with.

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Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:36 pm
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Joined: Fri May 29, 2020 4:15 pm
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I'll give a couple different perspectives on why I disagree with this line of thinking.

1) This is a game design perspective. I don't think hard caps belong in xenimus like some other games do it because the fundamental game type is different.
If you were to reference a game like World of Warcraft as an example where they implement these types of hard caps. This is only doable because they regularly release patches with new goal posts, and new expansions. So for 60% of the game they never run up against these hard caps. Probably 50% of the remaining 40% never get so far ahead of the rest of the people that they don't have meaningful upgrades to make. Then the remaining population only have to be limited in their progress for a month or two, but they're still ahead of the game and benefiting from their work for the most part.
Xenimus doesn't have expansions, new gear sets, new dungeons, new bosses, new pvp seasons with new rewards. Xenimus is unique in the fact that the game doesn't move the goal post often. Which in some ways sucks, but in some ways it's really nice. Xenimus is a game you can play for years and never run out of meaningful upgrades. Whether you have 5mins or 5 hours you have content you can participate in to move your character forward.
Now if you were to start hard capping more things then already are you run into a real problem fairly quickly especially if the values are as low as you purposed. Everyone is now exactly equal, most of the game would be able to cap their characters, and it would become arbitrarily easy to balance the game... But you would also have no reason to play unless you specifically wanted to PvP people on even footing. Granted there might be some that think that sounds great. In a perfectly balance, perfectly equal world with no content to progress yourself, and no foreseeable changes in the future to participate in, you would within the first few hours learn who is the best pvpers, and the pvp would be over. Some people would quit because there was no progress to make, some would quit because their ego is hurt when they found out they weren't actually as good as they thought thery were, some would quit because it is boring stomping the same people over and over, and some would quit just because other people were quitting.

2) The second perspective is from the history of changes, and how things have changed.
Melee attack speed have been nerfed by around 66% speed wise. At least darkwars have been. It's only possible for me to get 1/3 the number of attacks that I was previously able to get on my darkwar. These are accurate and measured numbers. These are the effective hard caps by what is possible. Those are the extremes, and we can take a more tempered example. Let's say for not the extreme gear, but just for the good geared melees they've lost about 40% of their hits. We now need to ask ourselves has this new effective hard cap accomplished what we wanted? It depends on what your goal was I guess... If your goal is to make it where Hodor isn't winning that fell flat on it's face (A big reason this speed nerf was made was Hodor hits to fast), if the goal was to limit the possibilities in game/limit the scope of builds and options for balance purposes maybe, if the goal was to slow the game down for no reason except to slow it down then it worked, but I'm not sure what the real goal was.
Without a goal there is no point in making arbitrary changes as this has been shown time and time again to be a horrific idea. And you have to be careful by the goal because some people lie and E.J doesn't know any better. Which is why I take the time to point this stuff out on forums.
So let's say we have a goal, we don't want hodor to win anymore. We implement this hard cap at arbitrarily low values so I don't have any advantage over anyone else. What do we do if I'm still killing everyone? What if the goal is to slow things down to perfectly balance the game, and there are still the same small group of people beating everyone in the game based on skill alone. What do we do then?


Funnily enough, the solution it seems to me, is to not hard cap things. To let the players that grind the most be rewarded by stronger characters. If you have a low skilled pvper with a massive gear and stat advantage because of grinding they can beat a more skilled player. The problem everyone is having right now is everything is so nerfed, stats are so close together, it's so hard to meaningfully progress that skill matters A LOT. When you make this scenario where skill is a HIGH value, and then you let someone get far ahead in gear then it seems impossible for anyone to do anything to beat that player. There is only a couple of people in the game that if they had as much gear as me could compete. Sadly most peoples ego won't accept that so they make excuses that aren't real instead of trying to actually improve their skill/gear.

I've been nerfed so many times that it's unreal. Me specifically. I'm sure it'll happen some more, but you just have to be careful with the intentions of the people in the discussions. I've been playing Hodor and winning when melee were so bad that I was literally the ONLY one playing one in the entire game in pvp. I have a youtube channel full of me fighting mage after mage after mage literally standing there laughing at my damage while I was taking CRAZY amounts of damage, and I still found ways to win. If you want to see how over powered mages are when they're as geared as Hodor is now - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdfnphqo_Y0


Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:28 pm
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:21 am
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Loki wrote:
DEF n eded for stacking 71-91 agility + high attack speed + level 73 omni velocitas speed buff + rage potions all stacked. The animation shows 1 hit but youre hit 2-4x.

Hard caps kinda suck though, as you see the amp/amd cap made every mage more or less the same.

But melees never got any kind of a cap as they are free to stacking DOZENS of multipliers at once.

Soft caps I am fine with.



Yeah, but what about BDO? What do they do?


Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:16 am
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Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:59 pm
Posts: 176
Caps and limits are what is killing this game , no one is stacking agility like that without literally pouring every stat point into it .

Stop the madness , stop the nerfs, let my people go,
Freeedooommmm.


Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:00 am
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Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:21 pm
Posts: 80
more restriction is a horrible idea. Nothing good comes from putting more caps and restrictions on stats. The current ones need lifted tbh

also:
JumboShrimp wrote:
Loki wrote:
DEF n eded for stacking 71-91 agility + high attack speed + level 73 omni velocitas speed buff + rage potions all stacked. The animation shows 1 hit but youre hit 2-4x.

Hard caps kinda suck though, as you see the amp/amd cap made every mage more or less the same.

But melees never got any kind of a cap as they are free to stacking DOZENS of multipliers at once.

Soft caps I am fine with.



Yeah, but what about BDO? What do they do?


this.


Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:48 pm
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They have caps too. But im not for hard caps... soft caps...maybe. No one should have 1 infinite stat.

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Last edited by Loki on Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Dec 04, 2021 4:37 pm
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:26 am
Posts: 201
adding hard caps is bad

adding "softcaps" which there already seems to be could be a good idea

there seems to be softcaps on cast speed, attackspeed etc

altho they seem to start way to early and the diminishing return seems abit low

id say start the diminishin return on cast speed at maybe 35
attack speed id say 40 or 50

Example

say 1-35 cast speed you need 1 cast speed per every 1 cast speed gained on character sheet
35-45 you need 1.5 cast speed per every cast speed gained on character sheet
45-50 you need 2 cast speed per every 1 cast speed
50-60 3 cast speed per every 1 cast speed


1-40 Attack speed = 40 attackspeed

40-50 1.5 or 2 attackspeed needed per character sheet APS increase
50-60 2 or 3 attack speed per attack speed on character sheet


Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:21 pm
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 2:04 am
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If we could get to a place where attack speed can match the animation of swings so that combat is more readable then that's mostly the goal here. I'm not interested in nerfing individuals but just tightening up the game for everyone.

Attack speed and procs are just one example. Combat text, a log, tooltips for spells, and other things would also be nice to have for the longterm so we could better understand what our characters are actually doing and how/why.

@xenforum3
Good points. I would compare Xenimus to ARPG games more than other MMOs but I do see your point about what works for other games may not work here. I'd like to get to a place where the game can make a good player feel good in all content and attack speed is just an outlier in a sea of things that I personally see as problematic because they aren't designed properly. Maybe we can find what works best for Xen without it being obtuse and more deliberately designed.

@notthisshitagain
I agree hard caps should be used sparingly. Resists and damage reduction makes sense because you don't want someone clever to find a way to be immortal with damage reduction for example. Soft cap would be the fit for speed so you can keep growing power over time and as new levels get added you can have a more smooth power curve without spiraling off the rails.


Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:01 pm
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Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:38 pm
Posts: 459
epicchase wrote:
If we could get to a place where attack speed can match the animation of swings so that combat is more readable then that's mostly the goal here. I'm not interested in nerfing individuals but just tightening up the game for everyone.

Attack speed and procs are just one example. Combat text, a log, tooltips for spells, and other things would also be nice to have for the longterm so we could better understand what our characters are actually doing and how/why.


1000x yes. having the option to turn on or off combat scrolling text would be so good.


Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:18 am
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