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 Xen 2.0 Class Balance Discussion 
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Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 4:20 am
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EJ mentioned in our last Discord call that he's unlikely to make any class balance adjustments based on individual feedback. I figured to start a thread for us to talk about the classes we play and identify balance adjustments for certain classes. Classes like ranger, paladin, and cleric have obvious issues in some areas so if you play these classes; please elaborate on what these issues are and provide feedback on what you think ideal adjustments might be to bring these classes more in line with other classes in the game.


Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:24 pm
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:02 pm
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As far as the cleric/diabolist classes are concerned, here is my lengthy two cents:

We are currently the only class that can't walk and multi (Vastare Malus) at the same time. In trans-zones, this isn't much of an issue. However, in most end-game content, the zones are non-trans, which means that we are at a significant disadvantage when compared to all other classes. We have to stand still to kill mobs which means we are forced to take a heck of a lot of damage.

Even though we can wear plate/scale/chain as opposed to wizards and warlocks, the added protection that the plate offers over the non-plate option doesn't feel adequate enough to compensate for standing still. Wizards and warlocks feel just as tanky if not more tanky than the cleric. This actually holds true for druids too, however they can move when they cast multi, so it isn't as much of an issue.

How can they be more balanced? Hard to say.

Cleric/Diabolist/Paladin/Druid? classes are "holy/spirit" types, which the "Extrudere" spell is based off of. Increasing the effect that spirit bonus has on the spell could help, but would in turn not really boost Paladin (which also needs help), but would also help the Druid (which doesn't need the help).

Inline with above, giving the Cleric/Diabolist a class-specific boost in just... "protection" to make them a little more "tanky" when they are doing exactly that, "tanking" all the damage that is being dished out by monsters. This would at least have no impact to other class types and PVE. It could potentially effect PVP though.

Somebody suggested in discord that increasing Vastare Malus damage could help too, as a means to be able to power through the damage taken quicker, or at least steal back more HP as a result to help survivability. I don't know how it compares to other mage class multi damage, though I feel it would need to be a decent amount higher if we are meant to stand still and take damage. This kind of also seems a little unfair, I don't necessarily feel that as a utility class, we should dish out loads of damage.

Being able to walk would at least be a step in the right direction (pun intended). That would increase survivability for Cleric/Diabolist alone, without any effect on other class balancing -- not in PVP or PVE.


Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:30 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:47 pm
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Kvothe wrote:
Being able to walk would at least be a step in the right direction (pun intended). That would increase survivability for Cleric/Diabolist alone, without any effect on other class balancing -- not in PVP or PVE.


As someone who played Cleric/Diab for many years on 1.0 I feel like that would be a substantial quality of life improvement and make a ton of difference in survivability for non trans zones. Even though I have not leveled my 2.0 cleric/diab yet I think that's not an unreasonable ask and wouldn't be unfair or unbalanced either if implemented.


On the subject of druids and the specific mention of a level 50 clearing level 90 areas with pets, this should never happen. I saw it said in world chat yesterday "What so other people do it and its fine but I do it and it's an issue". I don't have to mention who said it because its irrelevant, the fact remains that they're able to do it and not just them "other people do it" is justification enough to abuse it and do it also.

Now, to keep this constructive and not let it just be a complaint I have a question and proposal. I do not play druid, have never had a high level druid and don't see people running around with monster minions on 1.0 so I assume this is specific to 2.0.
The Question: Is the ability to have 2 high level pets what is enabling druids to well exceed what their intended capabilities should be?
The proposal: If so, then could the number of pets be reduced to 1? I think its really cool the concept of charming monsters to help you but if you can cheese the game and accomplish things solo that are meant to be done as a party would that not warrant a speedy if not immediate fix?

I'll echo the Paladin crisis too. I paid the $5 to skip to level 14 because the cost/benefit analysis was so far in my favor if I paid that I'd have felt like an idiot if I'd spent all that time smacking things from level 1. I got to level 16 before I was burnt out on paladin already. So despite my character possibly being parked forever at level 16, I still think spending $5 to skip the first 14 levels was worth it. And I don't think it should be that way for any class because I really like the Paladin dynamic but I'm not going to grind my face into the dirt for it.

Warlock feels like it's in a really nice spot. Damage isn't too high, survivability feels a little lacking at times but it should because they should be squishy but overall a pleasant grind and doesn't feel like it's overpowered or underpowered.

I haven't seen enough of the other classes to have an opinion yet but looking forward to dipping into Wiz and Ranger soon.


Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:29 pm
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 2:04 am
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I know it's a sin to discuss 2.0 without being a full-time player there, but most of the issues that exist affect both games at least when it comes to function of spells and numbers. The games are visually different but mostly the same under the hood. I understand that class balance is slightly different because some things make it into 2 before 1, or visaversa. That being said, principles should apply across both games.

I want Xen2 to be so good that I no longer want to download Xen1 and I'm sure EJ wants the same. It's not enjoyable to play yet but I can see the potential if it was much more polished. Loads of ways to approach. I'll reiterate as I have in the past that balance between the classes is far less important in the grand scheme than design is. I still believe that to be true.

HOWEVER, I do understand that it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT for classes to at least function at some kind of baseline effectiveness and I personally think this is much more important than endgame, max level performance in the best or near best gear in the game. If classes are struggling to kill very low level enemies because of poor design or simple number tuning mistakes, those are HIGH PRIORITY and NEED TO BE ADDRESSED. New players WILL QUIT if they think the class or character they have made and want to play is terrible, and this is paramount for having any kind of player retention. Some classes are literally unplayable in certain level ranges across both games and that is a DIRE PROBLEM that needs immediate attention.


Kvothe is correct that armor does not make enough of an impact on survivability for how the classes are supposed to function. It used to be a flat damage reduction, but hasn't been that way for ages now. Maybe revisit that now that monster damage is so high? I would suggest toying with the values between the different from 0%/10%/20%/30% (robe, leather, chain, plate) to be much higher. Classes like ranger would benefit slightly from this, but the issue of monster spell damage being much too high is still an issue. If armor was appropriately scaled as well, melee classes who would naturally want to wear heavier armor wouldn't need their armor spells to scale or even have them at all. Personally, I think you could easily have it be something like 0/25/50/100% AC (robe, leather, chain, plate) and it would shake out better overall. Won't know unless it's tried.

As for the armor spells, I would also suggest tying the strength of armor spells directly to the class' main stat scaling (INT/WIS) and adjusting those accordingly by each class so that armor spells scale more appropriately and evenly across the mage classes. There is some conflicting scaling where some spells are based on Spirit/WIS or Energy/INT for classes that don't want that magic type, so if the spell damage types were decoupled from set main stats then the whole spell system would be easier to balance overall.

Another place to adjust is the Omni Shield skill. It has no use, so why not change it to a armor spell+% or a buff that gives a chance to negate damage (like block works) that would be worth the skill point investment? Druids have access to Critical Magic which scales insanely well with their multi attack not having a target cap, having no animation lock, and scaling better than a cleric's Malus does at high levels of AMD. Why not either change Critical Magic to something that doesn't affect their damage output as much or change Cleric's Critical Energy to ALSO be Critical Magic? Things to consider that would require minimal work on EJ's part.

This would also include magic damage such as clerics and diabolists being loaded with spells that do not scale with their main stat or prefered damage type. Some things are out of place like diabolists randomly having ice ball instead of fire ball, and fire, energy, AND ice spells scaling from INT a stat that class does not want. That leaves Malus as the only usable spell for that class which is a major issue for their versatility in addition to the problems that spell happens to have with animation locking you while casting it. Lower damage output would be fine if you could withstand the incoming damage like he mentions, but right now monsters hit far too hard and no amount of protection makes up for the fact that you are often 2-3 hit by enemies around your level across the entire game. That's obviously a problem but it's the only way that EJ understands difficulty in the game, so that's a hurdle to overcome as well.

Damage output isn't always the knob to adjust. If you think of the power of the class as like a pie chart, or speedometer, where "glass canon" is on one side and "tank with a foam noodle" is on the other. After establishing the two sides of the spectrum you can have the classes fill the areas in-between the two extremes by what they are capable of doing. Ideally every class should be able to choose based on gear and stat/skill build where they would like to be based on their preference, but if you want a rigid class system where every class fills a defined role then you have to enforce it through the design of the game. Unless you have a really solid foundation to start from it's impossible to balance anything.

Lastly as for EJ not making balance changes based on individual feedback... GOOD! However, there has to be some objective information to go on somewhere accessible to us as players or him as the developer. I've recommended training dummies, floating combat text, or a combat log literally every chance I've gotten to mixed response. If EJ wants to remove subjectivity from discussion and suggestions, the best thing he could do is add ways to visualize numbers in game so there is no ambiguity or bias in the equation. Heard excuses about latency, strain on the server, or how players would use that information as a bludgeon against EJ to make changes, etc. Ultimately we need some way to see what's happening in game or it's all just guessing and hearsay and we are all just wasting our time discussing balance or bugs or whatever else.


Since Xen2 has the opportunity to be more experimental before going public (Steam), I would recommend EJ take the time to clean up every basic aspect of the classes and then experiment with some of the things I've mentioned here and what's mentioned in the thread. Numbers are relatively the easiest thing to adjust with very limited time so there should be more active experimentation going on all the time. I think the last time I heard about clerics being adjusted it was to make their multi fire off faster, but that doesn't solve the built in issue with the animation lock. Simply remove the animation lock and see how it goes from there. If that's too difficult a thing to change, adjust survivability via AC, HP, monster damage, etc. The list goes on until it feels better overall.


Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:54 pm
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